Discussion:
ENOUGH!
(too old to reply)
Karoly Negyesi
2006-11-23 09:28:54 UTC
Permalink
You guys write dozens of stupid letters about RFC: letting modules phone
home to check for new releases which leads to nowhere aside from the usual
"RoR does this better but aside from this I have nothing substantial to
add" totally derailing the issue any hand.

Who reviews patches?

Who fixes bugs?

We have a release at hand!

Let's consider this as a new rule: before writing to devel during the code
freeze, you should link to an issue followup where you actually added
something. Consider this as a karma.

/me steps down from his soapbox and goes off with steam coming from both
ears
Bèr Kessels
2006-11-23 14:07:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Karoly Negyesi
Let's consider this as a new rule: before writing to devel during the code
  freeze, you should link to an issue followup where you actually added
something. Consider this as a karma.
Lets not consider this as a rule =) Great people have added great stuff to
Drupal without writing a single line of PHP, without commenting to a single
issue. The moment we are going to set rules for people to discuss stuff,
based on metrics such as committed patches, we have killed a successful open
community. Isn't it "free as in freedom"?

If people discuss stuff on the mailinglist, such a discussion proves there is
a certain itch. Wether or not that is your personal itch should not matter.
Get yourself a mailreader that can ignore threads if it really annoys you,
but please do not try to kill a discussion just because you don't like it, or
because in your vision there are more important matters.

Bèr
--
Drupal, Ruby on Rails and Joomla! development: webschuur.com | Drupal hosting:
sympal.nl
Dries Buytaert
2006-11-23 17:54:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bèr Kessels
Post by Karoly Negyesi
Let's consider this as a new rule: before writing to devel during the code
freeze, you should link to an issue followup where you actually added
something. Consider this as a karma.
Lets not consider this as a rule =) Great people have added great stuff to
Drupal without writing a single line of PHP, without commenting to a single
issue. The moment we are going to set rules for people to discuss stuff,
based on metrics such as committed patches, we have killed a
successful open
community. Isn't it "free as in freedom"?
If people discuss stuff on the mailinglist, such a discussion
proves there is
a certain itch. Wether or not that is your personal itch should not matter.
Get yourself a mailreader that can ignore threads if it really
annoys you,
but please do not try to kill a discussion just because you don't like it, or
because in your vision there are more important matters.
No need to make karma explicit. Through our conversations and
cooperation, we build trust and respect. For each of you, my brain
keeps a karma-score that is derived from our interactions. I bet you
a beer that your brain does the same. :)

It's actually quite simple: "you get karma when you accomplish
things". It doesn't get more complex than that yet people fail to
see it. You can accomplish things through talk, through writing or
through coding.

What Karoly meant to say is that there are quite a few people that
like to debate technical stuff without accomplishing technical
things. It doesn't buy them karma -- quite the opposite.

But most of all, Karoly meant to say that we need to focus more on
getting Drupal 5 out, and that we could use more people working the
bug tracker. The people that do spend a lot of time in the issue
tracker would love to help plan the future, and work on exciting new
things. For them, it's frustrating to see other people debate about
the future without being concerned about the current. Why? Because
all the talk is not likely to "accomplish" anything unless we get
Drupal 5 out first.

At this point in the release schedule, technical talk doesn't buy you
much karma. So thank god my e-mail client can kill threads. Oh, and
sorry for being meta. Hopefully I didn't loose too much karma with
this mail. I should have known better.

Anyway, I hope I clarified Karoly's words for you.

--
Dries Buytaert :: http://www.buytaert.net/
Kieran Lal
2006-11-23 18:32:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dries Buytaert
Anyway, I hope I clarified Karoly's words for you.
Karoly's rant is fairly counter-productive in my opinion. Guilt is a
lousy motivator.

The last major release took 13 months and it was a complete mystery
to even the most intimate observers when or what was necessary to get
4.7 out the door. There's little understanding in what it's going
to take to get this release out, unless you reviewing the issue
queue. Out of 80 000+ accounts on Drupal.org how many unique hits
are there to the 5.0 core issue queue?

Leadership is often about communication and having a consistent
message to rally supporters. Regularly publishing a list of critical
bugs to the developers mailing list and to the front page of
Drupal.org that indicate what's necessary to get beta 2 out the door
would be helpful.

It's also important to keep in mind that I don't know anyone who runs
Drupal core. So enthusiasm for getting 5.0 out the door is as much
about waiting for contributed modules to be ported to 5.0 as it is
about getting core out. Right now there's about approximately 70
contributed modules which have been ported to 5.0. There is upgrade
documentation and a new module upgrade module all of which support
the the 5.0 sites people will actually use, and will actually be
motivated to fix.

So if someone is ranting about core, and creating no patches for
core, and doing no testing of core they still might be very active in
moving the Drupal community to 5.0. That's because they are porting
contributed modules, using the upgrade documentation, testing
upgrading tools, and basically tackling the hardest part of using
Drupal. Participation comes in many forms and all deserve respect.

To assist in this effort I am happy to volunteer to write a post of
the front page of Drupal.org with a list of the issues necessary for
Beta 2, and include links to the 70 contributed modules which should
be tested with 5.0 beta 1. Just help me identify the remaining
issues for beta 2.

Cheers,
Kieran
Morbus Iff
2006-11-23 19:16:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kieran Lal
Karoly's rant is fairly counter-productive
in my opinion. Guilt is a lousy motivator.
And repetitive. He did this last time, with the admonishment that
he'd turn the list moderated and enforce his tyrannical "rule" ;)
--
Morbus Iff ( i subscribe to the theory of intellectual osmosis )
Technical: http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/au/779
Culture: http://www.disobey.com/ and http://www.gamegrene.com/
icq: 2927491 / aim: akaMorbus / yahoo: morbus_iff / jabber.org: morbus
Dries Buytaert
2006-11-23 22:53:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kieran Lal
The last major release took 13 months and it was a complete mystery
to even the most intimate observers when or what was necessary to
get 4.7 out the door. There's little understanding in what it's
going to take to get this release out, unless you reviewing the
issue queue.
It is documented in the release announcement at http://drupal.org/
drupal-5.0-beta1.
Post by Kieran Lal
It's also important to keep in mind that I don't know anyone who
runs Drupal core.
I know a fair amount of people that run Drupal core.
Post by Kieran Lal
So if someone is ranting about core, and creating no patches for
core, and doing no testing of core they still might be very active
in moving the Drupal community to 5.0. That's because they are
porting contributed modules, using the upgrade documentation,
testing upgrading tools, and basically tackling the hardest part of
using Drupal. Participation comes in many forms and all deserve
respect.
I couldn't agree more.
Post by Kieran Lal
To assist in this effort I am happy to volunteer to write a post of
the front page of Drupal.org with a list of the issues necessary
for Beta 2, and include links to the 70 contributed modules which
should be tested with 5.0 beta 1. Just help me identify the
remaining issues for beta 2.
The critical bugs need fixing. No need to write up a post about it;
we'll get them fixed soon enough and I plan to roll a beta 2 the next
couple days. The point of my e-mail was not to rally testers but to
stop counter-productive debates on the development mailing list.

--
Dries Buytaert :: http://www.buytaert.net/

Earl Miles
2006-11-23 19:46:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dries Buytaert
But most of all, Karoly meant to say that we need to focus more on
getting Drupal 5 out, and that we could use more people working the bug
tracker. The people that do spend a lot of time in the issue tracker
would love to help plan the future, and work on exciting new things.
For them, it's frustrating to see other people debate about the future
without being concerned about the current. Why? Because all the talk
is not likely to "accomplish" anything unless we get Drupal 5 out first.
IMO, the thread that Derek started this whole thing with *is* the current, and
I'm disappointed that it's considered otherwise.
Karoly Negyesi
2006-11-23 20:19:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Earl Miles
IMO, the thread that Derek started this whole thing with *is* the current, and
I'm disappointed that it's considered otherwise.
I have not reacted to Derek's or your post... I was angry with the fact that the whole discussion got de-railed again...

But, if my closing comment was not enough to signal that I just vented, then here it is explicit.

Note to Kieran: I did sent a mail to this very list with a subject of last critical...
Earl Miles
2006-11-23 20:26:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Karoly Negyesi
Post by Earl Miles
IMO, the thread that Derek started this whole thing with *is* the current, and
I'm disappointed that it's considered otherwise.
I have not reacted to Derek's or your post... I was angry with the fact that the whole discussion got de-railed again...
But, if my closing comment was not enough to signal that I just vented, then here it is explicit.
Note to Kieran: I did sent a mail to this very list with a subject of last critical...
My apologies, I misunderstood the starting point of your post. I do understand
your frustration.
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